Wednesday, March 30, 2005
They're People Too
Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice?
- Do you suppose the Bible has anything to do with it?
- Could it be faith in God and Jesus His son?
- Could it be the Bible?
- Could it be the affect God has on our lives by our obedience to Him?
Could prayer have anything to do with our experiences and beliefs and faith?
We want people:
- to think the way we think;
- to have the same convictions we have;
- to come to the same conclusions to which we have come.
without the same benefit we had in developing our thoughts and convictions and conclusions. Maybe we, the church, should try doing what the Bible says and bring them to Jesus and the apostles and prophets through studying the Bible with them and letting them come to the same conclusions as we have.
Lets let people think and develop faith by directing them to the One who can change their lives.
Wednesday, March 23, 2005
Abortion etc..
We want people to think the way we think, to have the same convictions we have, to come to the same conclusions to which we have come without the same benefit we had in developing our thoughts and convictions and conclusions. Maybe we, the church, should try doing what the Bible says and bring them to Jesus and the apostles and prophets through studying the Bible with them and letting them come to the same conclusions as we have.
Lets let people think and develop faith by directing them to the One who can change their lives.
Monday, March 21, 2005
In 1844 Karl Marx wrote.. “Religion is the opiate of the people!”
- It is a religion that declares that there is meaning in “the circle of life”, but never bothers to define what that meaning is.
- It is a religion that allows me to feel good about who I am but never calls me to account for the corruption of my soul.
- It is a religion that can be called on as an ally whenever it is required but yet can be dropped when it is expedient.
- It is a warm drink on a cool night, a gentle, sentimental story with endless happy endings.
- It is a self-serving religion that is entirely invented by our own passion for self-fulfillment, with no more objective basis than the dreams of a child at Christmas time.
Life without God is meaningless, tragic and, in the end, desperately lonely. But who will ever seek the peace and joy offered by the Creator of the Universe as long as the senses are dulled by the opiate of our own imaginations?
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life!” (John 14:6). Jesus is not an opiate. He does not offer comfortable meaningless answers. He offers us the truth about our condition and the future. He offers life, joy, peace, love – but only to those who will commit themselves to follow him.
Karl Marx was a German...
but his ideas changed Russian history. Marx was dismayed by the treatment of workers in Europe. Conditions in European factories were very harsh and unsafe. Marx argued that workers, rather than landlords, should control factories and farms. He urged the "workers of the world to unite" in a worldwide revolution.
Marx's ideas were known as Communism, a word formed for common. Workers would share wealth in a communist society. Marx wrote that wealth should be distributed "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
He was born a Jew, but his father converted the family to Christianity in order to get a job. Marx did not believe in God and thought workers were controlled by religion. He said, "religion is the opiate of the people." Opium is a drug.
Marx died in 1883, but his ideas formed the basis of the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. Mongolia became the second communist nation in 1921 and by the end of World War II, many governments were overthrown by communists.
The ideas of Marx were not used in the communist countries. Marx believed that workers would control government, but communist governments were strict and dictatorial. Workers were often forced to work on huge collective farms and factory workers often had to fulfill quotas. In most Communist nations, the press was censored. They were not allowed to print news stories that criticized the government. People who spoke out against the Soviet government were treated harshly.
Is Your Organization's View of Reality Valid?
Nine Reasons the Church has struggled in the Midst of an Environment of Unprecedented Opportunity
1) Few Christians have a clear, measurable definition of “Spiritual Success”
The old adage warns us, “If you don’t know where you’re going, any road will take you there.” It has been assumed that if a church provides consistent events, biblical information, and appealing programs for people and the people consume those offerings, and then the users will grow. Rarely do we stop to figure out in practical terms what God expects from us, to assess how we measure up to those expectations, or to determine what we must do to improve our performance with respect to those desired outcomes.
We often settle for something less than the biblical standard and certainly less than what we are capable of becoming. If success is negotiable, why not include “comfortable and easily achievable growth” among the factors that make us successful.
What “spiritual success” is not specified and we do not feel compelled to work out a definition of such an end point or destination. As a result most believers have embraced a cheap facsimile of spiritual success and in many cases, without the realization that they have “dumbed down” Christianity.
2) We have defined “discipleship” as head knowledge rather than complete transformation
When we think of discipleship strategies we usually think about teaching events and programs such as Sunday school, small groups, Christian education classes, study groups, reading groups, and Vacation Bible School. While these are needed, it is not enough to fill people’s heads with Bible verses and principles. Read the Gospels and look for Jesus’ words to the Pharisees and Sadducees. The religious leaders of Jesus’ time had memorized more Scripture and religious content than most of us can imagine. As Jesus’ models of how not to live, they were all head and no heart.” They knew the data but ignored its application.
Faith that is not wholly integrated and consistently lived out is a charade. Bible knowledge and a righteous lifestyle must support each other.
We need biblical knowledge and we need to apply that knowledge in practical ways. Both the head and the heart need opportunity to grow and to make a difference in our lives and in the world.
3) We have chosen to teach people in random rather than systematic ways.
We provide people with biblical substance but not in a purposeful, systematic manner and as a result, believers are exposed to good information without context and lose that information because they have no way of making sense of it within the bigger picture of faith and life. Believers become well versed in knowing characters, stories, ideas, and verses from the Bible, but they remain clueless as to their importance.
Few churches intentionally guide people through a strategic learning and developmental process that have been customized for the student. We expect everyone to “get it” at the same time and in the same way as they simultaneously develop into mature believers.
4) There is virtually no accountability for what we say, think, do, or believe.
True growth demands accountability. We operate on the basis of feelings, assumptions, and hopes rather than tangible, measurable realities.
We tend to be most focused upon evaluating people’s knowledge; with only limited attempts to hold people accountable to grow beyond information acquisition and retention.
5) When it comes to discipleship, we promote programs rather than people.
Even though churches claim that they are devoted to developing people, the most effective developmental procedures are generally ignored because they are people-intensive processes.
Growing true disciples is not about maintaining tight control. It is about letting go to see what God, through His Holy Spirit, can do in the life of believers who truly want to mature in Christ. Jesus accomplished the maturing of His followers thorough a personal relationship focused on creating a particular kind of person.
6) The primary method on which churches rely for spiritual development – Small Groups – typically fails to provide comprehensive spiritual nurture.
Having small groups of people committed to helping one another grow can be effective but life transformation is not seen through small groups. The substance that is shared in the group settings is often plagued by superficiality, misrepresentation, or the absence of application. We recruit people for groups and fail to prepare people for developing within those groups.
7) Church leaders are not zealous about the spiritual development of people.
While most church leaders give verbal support to the idea of spiritual growth, they often are not personally devoted to strenuously advocating spiritual transformation. This is witnessed in several ways.
First, few congregants describe their church leaders as role models or as zealots for Christ. Most believers have no clue what the spiritual life of their church leaders is like and therefore have little cause to emulate them.
Second, few church leaders make discipleship a top priority. Prioritizing the church’s ministries is a tough juggling act. To some extent the church lacks real disciples because the spiritual leaders have inadequately prioritized that outcome.
Third, when church leaders describe “success” attendance, revenue, programs, and square footage frequently constitute the practical dimensions of success. Few church leaders indicate that success relates to the spiritual quality of the lives of their congregants. Often the quantity of people participating in a group event or activity is sited.
When church leaders downplay discipleship, the message comes though loud and clear: “It’s helpful, but optional.”
8) We invest our resources in adults rather than in children.
People tend to do what is most comfortable and natural for them. If we objectively assess where we will get the greatest return on the church’s money, we would pour our resources into ministries to children. Studies show that once children reach the age of twelve or so, the chances of changing adults are very slim.
This is not to insinuate that God cannot completely reform an adult, nor does it imply thatthe Bible is wrong when it says that believers become regenerated beings after they encounter Christ, it is simple recognition of human reality. People can change no matter how young or old they are, but positive change is much easier when people are young. When we focus our energy on resuscitating adults rather than nurturing children, we have more ground to cover because we have to undo much more that we would in working with children.
9) We divert our best leaders to ministries other than discipleship.
When you have an individual with good skills but little, if any, leadership ability, discipleship fails to get the motivational push it needs.
Without a true leader at the helm of the discipleship function, believers cannot be faulted for missing the point.
Good leaders motivate, mobilize, and direct people to fulfill a vision. Options are presented for personal growth and assumptions are made that the people will quickly embrace the possibilities and benefits. When they don’t, heads are shaken and the people’s lack of commitment is bemoaned – without realizing the people are committed -- to those things that fit within their vision of a meaningful life. Failure to place competent leaders in the disciple-making process enables the believers to completely misunderstand the opportunity presented to them.
Summary of advice from leaders in effective disciple making churches
Recognize that disciple making is a process, not a program.
- The process will not occur without leadership from church leaders.
- The church’s ministry focus must be streamlined to prioritize and support discipleship.
- The process is not likely to succeed unless there is a simple but intelligent plan for growth.
- The process will not generate true disciples unless it has a designated supervisor to facilitate progress, foster creative problem solving, and development, and strive for reasonable outcomes.
- In creating a process that works, adapt lessons learned by other effective disciple-making churches to your own unique ministry context.
- Be prepared for burnout and complacency to set in after two or three years of involvement in an intensive process.
- Carefully balance the competing interests of flexibility and structure.
--From--
Growing True Disciples
George Barna
WaterBrook Press
A Modern Parable -- Batsell Barrett Baxter
When they arrive at the field they see the golden harvest and are deeply impressed. They talk about what a wonderful privilege it is to get to harvest so big and bountiful a crop. But someone points out that the fence around this field is not very attractive. It is an old rock fence and in many places the stones have tumbled down. So the people set to building a new fence. They spend all morning getting stones from a nearby stream which they use to build a beautiful wall around the field.
When the fence is finished, someone suggests, “Let’s get to work.” Someone else responds, “Wait, if the sun gets any hotter, or if it should rain, we will need shelter.” They all agree, so over in one corner of the field they build a shelter for themselves. It is so beautifully done that they decide to put a plaque on it, with names inscribe, so that everybody who passes by in generations to come will know just who was thoughtful enough to build such a wonderful shelter.
Then someone says, “Now let’s get to the harvest.” But others say, “It is noon and we ought first to eat.” So they work diligently until quite a feast is prepared. It is in keeping with the beautiful wall and the fine shelter and is a wonderful feast indeed. After the dinner is finished, there is a period of rest, of course, and then someone says, “Now for the harvest.” But someone else replies, “ With such a great responsibility and with such a great challenge before us, do we not need to be better dressed than we are?” Immediately, each provides for himself better garments with which to do the harvesting. Then again they turn their thought to the golden grain and begin to sharpen the scythes with which to cut the grain. After a while they are razor sharp. But as they look at the grubby old handles they are not satisfied. They are unworthy instruments for so great a work. So they begin to carve those ugly handles into beautiful pieces, and some even add intricate filigree work of gold and silver. One man is even able to adorn his scythe with mother of pearl. It is truly a beautiful thing.
Now they are ready to go to the harvest. But suddenly someone says, “It is night, the sun is gone down.” It is then that they realize that only a few have cut any grain. So these wonderful people (like us) turn back sorrowing with guilty feelings to meet the man who owns the field. He comes to meet them, expecting shoulders laden with heavy bags of grain, but instead he finds only beautiful tools and a story of wonderful fences and fine clothes and a good dinner and a shelter to take care of those who work. He asks sadly, “But where is the harvest?” the people are speechless and ashamed.
Teens' rising spirituality features a worrisome side
"Some of the things I see that have changed are the levels of spiritual maturity. Today's teens take church as a whole more seriously," says Kyle Mott, youth minister of Northeast Church of Christ.
Across the state line, Associate Pastor Jeff DeBoard at First Baptist Church of Gate City, Va., gives a similarly upbeat assessment.
"I feel that young people today are searching for absolute truth that can only come through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ," he says. "I believe God is raising up a very conservative generation of youth who have a sincere desire to worship God and search his word for direction and understanding."
Reports by the Barna Research Group, the gold standard in data about the nation's religious life, do, indeed, show that young adults are searching for spiritual meaning in their lives. But beneath the general spike in spirituality Barna documents, there also lurks some rather disturbing findings.
While a majority of teens continue to profess faith, George Barna's research shows it is definitely not the faith of their fathers. Indeed, the majority of Christian teens hold many beliefs that stand in stark contrast to mainline Christian orthodoxy.
While approximately 60 percent of teens agree with the statement, "The Bible is totally accurate in all of its teachings," and 56 percent say their religious faith is "very important" to them, slightly more than half of all teens also report believing that Jesus committed sins while he was on Earth. A clear majority - approximately 60 percent - also agree with the statement that "good works will get me to heaven." Such a belief, of course, is antithetical to the central theme of justification by grace through faith that is the central connecting theological thread of all Protestant belief since the Reformation.
Fire and brimstone isn't popular with teens either. Approximately two-thirds of teens say that Satan is "symbolic, not real."
On an even more alarming practical level, Barna finds that only 6 percent of all teens believe there are moral absolutes. Even among self-identified, "born-again" t eens, only nine percent believe moral truth is absolute.
"When you ask even Christian kids, ‘How can you say A is true as well as B, which is the antithesis of A?' their typical response is, ‘I'm not sure how it works, but it works for me,' " says Barna, president of the Ventura, Calif.-based research company that bears his name. "It's personal, pragmatic and fairly superficial."
If adults wonder how so many Christian teens could possess these increasingly relativistic, even schizophrenic, spiritual values, they may want to look in the mirror.
George Barna also reports that the percentage of born-again Christians who have been divorced (27 percent) actually beats the national average by two percentage points. "While it may be alarming to discover that born-again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time."
The changing attitudes and conduct of the Christian community concerning divorce is but one example of the ripples of moral consequence affecting church membership and wider society. The acceptance or opposition to homosexual unions is another example of the moral dilemma facing more and more denominations.
It's encouraging to hear religious leaders praise teen interest in church activities. In a world where even fundamental values seem fleeting, a life dedicated to a purpose greater than ourselves can be an anchor against a rising tide of moral relativism. And, as Barna's research shows, the human temptation to drift with that tide, whether young or old, is enormous.
Copyright 2004 Kingsport Times-News.
All rights reserved. This material must be credited to the Times-News when redistributed or broadcast.
Friday, February 25, 2005
Pledge of Allegiance ...
September 8, 1892
" The Pledge of Allegiance" to the United States of America was written by a former Baptist preacher, Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It only took Mr. Bellamy three hours to write the original 23 words in honor of the 400th anniversary of Columbus discovering America. . As published in Youth's Companion, the first version read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
He was forced to leave his Boston church the previous year because of the socialist bent of his sermons. (He shared the political sentiments of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, who wrote two socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (2000 to 1887) and Equality.) Francis Bellamy was later hired by the The Youth's Companion, a popular family magazine at the time. His writings reflected a Christian Socialist vision of a government-managed economy with "political, social and economic equality for all."
While writing for the journal, he was also on the Massachusetts State Education Board and was charged with organizing the state's Columbus Day celebrations in 1892. He decided to craft a pledge that school children would say aloud in front of the flag -- a pledge that would reflect his socialist beliefs. Mr. Bellamy considered using the word "equality" as well, but was aware that several members of his education committee were firmly against equal rights for women and African Americans. The phrase "under God," which was added by President Eisenhower in 1954, would not have met with Mr. Bellamy's approval. In his later years, Mr. Bellamy stopped attending services, dismayed by the openly racist sentiments of his church.
Wednesday, February 23, 2005
The U. S. Constitution:It isn't about what people can do it's about what goverment can do
The Constitution does not mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v. Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self- incrimination limit.
The separation of church and state
Jury of Peers
Marriage
A lot of controversy swirls around the topic of marriage as homosexual marriage entered the news, again. In 1999, the Vermont Supreme Court ordered that the state must make accommodations for gay unions, bringing the issue into the public eye. Vermont created civil unions as a result. In 2004, the Massachusetts Supreme Court went a step further, and ruled that the state must accommodate not just an institution equal to marriage, as civil union was designed to be, but that gay marriage itself must be offered in the state. Subsequently, mayors in New York and California BEGAN to offer gay marriage in their towns and cities, citing civil rights concerns. Those opposed to gay marriage began to urge that an amendment to the Constitution be created to define marriage as being between a man and a woman only. Opponents of the amendment pointed to the failed Prohibition Amendment as a reason why such social issues should stay out of the Constitution. In the absence of any such amendment, however, marriage is not mentioned in the Constitution at any point.
Judicial Review
We often hear about the Supreme Court striking down a law or a provision in a law, or, more often, reaffirming some law or provision. Take a look in the Constitution - judicial review, as this is known, is nowhere to be found. It seems like a perfectly normal action - after all, what kind of check does the Judicial Branch have on the other two branches if laws and orders cannot be declared unconstitutional. But judicial review is not specifically mentioned. So how did judicial review come to be? In the landmark case of Marbury v. Madison (1803), Chief Justice John Marshall declared a federal law, the Judiciary Act of 1789, to be unconstitutional, and thus null and void. This was the first time a Supreme Court ruling overturned a law.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness
Commonly attributed to the Constitution, it comes from the Declaration of Independence.
Commonly attributed to the Constitution, it comes from the Gettysburg Address.
Immigrants, not Americans, must adapt!
This idea of America, being a multi -cultural community, has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! ENGLISH. "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, and political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, of Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is and always will be part of our culture.
If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. Remember, "Delta is ready when you are and they can have you there by nightfall".
This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
Tuesday, February 01, 2005
Effectiveness of American Businesses
Monday, January 31, 2005
Isn't It Time?
On a world map the United States appears quite insignificant but we have the most intelligent population in the world. While there are examples of people other than Americans bettering mankind they could not have done so without the example and benefits offered by the United States. For just a minute think about how many people from Middle Eastern countries have ever benefited mankind? How about South America? How about the Far East with the exception of Japan? How about Eastern European countries? How about na-da, zip, zilch, zero? The people of the United States are the impetus behind change and improvements for civilization as well as the world. When people in other countries look at the us they see a country that will change their way of life. And we know how much people like change.
Isn’t it time to bring our military home from around the world?
Isn’t it time to stop allowing any U. S. company do business in other countries without the permission of the government of those countries? And at the same time citizens, of any country not permitting all U.S. companies free access to their markets, are not allowed to hold any interest in companies operating in any form within the borders of the United States.
Isn't it time to begin enforcing the hiring practices prohibiting the hiring of non-citizens not holding proper work permits? How about jail sentences and multi-million dollar fines for companies and people hiring those non-citizens? When a citizen of the United States works in France, no other member of that family is allowed to work in France. How about similar restrictions within the United States for all non-American citizens and jail terms for violators?
Isn't it time to evict the United Nations and all of the spies it brings with it?
Isn't it time to let the world know they do not need to like us but if they harm us in any way we will destroy their country? We have proven that killing civilians works. We did it. If you doubt, ask the Japanese. We have proven a small group of determined fighters can defeat the best army and navy in the world. If you do not believe, ask England. For the other side ask the people of Viet Nam about France and the United States. The United States is too large to fight small countries. Our weapons are too expensive to use and at the same time our soldiers are too precious to not protect them with those weapons.
Not everyone is cut out to live in a democracy and we should not require it to be a friend. Some countries function better under a dictatorship. Look at England they have a King or Queen and we had a war to get away from that. Remember Tito and Yugoslavia? Look what has been happening since Tito was killed.
We need to protect our borders and then live and let live.
Iraqi Elections
Since no terrorist activity ocurred what conclusion can we draw? There can be only two alternatives. Either the enemy we fear so much are not able to carry out such a criminal act or they do not care to carry it out. Allowing that anyone with enough determination can destroy a building as long as they are willing to put forth the effort it must mean the "bad guys" have no interest in carrying out such acts within the borders of the United States.
A few years ago a survey was taken concerning why peoples of other countries hate us at a time we think they should love us. Some of the conclusions of that survey showed that those people did not like the influence the West has on their cultures, their children, their way of life etc. I imagine if the survey was given to Christians within the borders of the United States the results would be quite similar.
Look at the beginning of the Arab people.
Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son, by Hagar the concubine He was born at Mamre, when Abraham was eighty-six years of age. At the age of thirteen he was circumcised. (Wouldn’t that make you mad?) He grew up a child of the desert, wild and wayward. On the occasion of the weaning of Isaac his rude and wayward spirit broke out in expressions of insult and mockery and Sarah told Abraham to “Expel this slave and her son.” Abraham dismissed Hagar and her son with no more than a skin of water and some bread.
Ishmael settled in the land of Paran, a region lying between Canaan and the mountains of Sinai; and “God was with him, and he became a great archer”. He became a great desert chief, but of his history little is recorded. He was about ninety years of age when his father Abraham died. On this occasion the two brothers met after being long separated. Isaac with his hundreds of household slaves, Ishmael with his troops of wild retainers and half-savage allies, in all the state of a Bedouin prince, gathered before the cave of Machpelah, in the midst of the men of Heth, to pay the last duties to the 'father of the faithful,' ”. Of the later events of his life little is known. He died at the age of one hundred and thirty-seven years, but where and when are unknown. He had twelve sons, who became the founders of so many Arab tribes or colonies, the Ishmaelites, who spread over the wide desert spaces of Northern Arabia from the Red Sea to the Euphrates, “their hand against every man, and every man's hand against them.”
What has changed? Looks like history continues….
Saturday, January 29, 2005
Privacy vs Security
Surveillance devices, ranging from lasers that can monitor members of a crowd for abnormal vital signs, to biometric scanners that pick out individual travelers at a distance and link them to databases containing their detailed personal information, are proliferating at an unprecedented rate.
Ways to spy on Internet chat rooms are being researched by our government. Black boxes in rental cars using global-positioning satellite technology to track and map a vehicle's travels, alerting the rental company if the driver speeds or crosses into Mexico in violation of the contract. National standards for drivers' license i.e. a de facto national ID card are being developed. The Patriot Act minimizes judicial oversight.
The government is evaluating a proposal for a universal database hold billions of pieces of information about ordinary citizens.
Current laws are inadequate to keep up with the technology.
How long before we delete that phrase from the national anthem....land of the free.....?
George Washington "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force ... Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master.”
Friday, January 28, 2005
Was He Ever Wrong!
Always Thinking
The Oklahoma legislature outlawed the blood sport in 2002 because of its cruelty to the roosters, which are slashed and pecked to death while spectators bet on the outcome. But state Sen. Frank Shurden, a Democrat from Henryetta, Okla., and a longtime defender of cockfighting, said the ban had wiped out a $100 million business.
To try to revive it, he has proposed that roosters wear little boxing gloves attached to their spurs, as well as lightweight, chicken-sized vests configured with electronic sensors to record hits and help keep score.
"It's like the fencing that you see on the Olympics, you know, where they have little balls on the ends of the swords and the fencers wear vests," Shurden said. "That's the same application that would be applied to the roosters."