Tuesday, December 30, 2014

Science vs Religion

I don't expect to change anyone's thinking. I give attention to science because no matter the subject there are thousands of scientists trying to disprove what other scientists assert. If Einstein’s or Darwin’s theories can be proven wrong careers will be guaranteed where as Christians pride themselves on keeping a narrow focus seldom questioning what they believe.

 

"God said it! I believe it! And that settles it!"

 

What that means is "I read somewhere in the Bible that God said it. I believe it, even if other Scriptures contradict it. I believe it, even if others understand differently. I believe it, even if my experience calls it into question. I believe it, because I was taught it as a child, And, since believing it won't cause me the pain of change, that settles it!"

 

Jesus said, "You have heard it said, 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth ..." Where had they heard that said? In the Bible, when the Lord said to Moses, "If anyone injures his neighbor whatever he had done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth." God said it, they believed it, and that settled it for everyone but Jesus. Countering God's very words, Jesus said, "But I tell you ... if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

 

Jesus challenged blind dedication to the written word. This has never been popular.

 

Can we honor men and women in the bible and ignore their example?  They trusted their experiences with God more than the words that preceded them. Can we ignore their obedience to the voice of God telling them something new?

 


What?

Christians believe God is a loving AND if we do not do exactly as he likes he will torture us for eternity. Is that  love or what?

Sunday, December 28, 2014

Re: Ask and It Will Be Given to You.....

I will differ with your understanding. The words are more along the line of “by Jesus’ authority:” similar to “stop in the name of the law.” The police are not operating under their own authority but under the authority of the law.  Adding “in Jesus’ name” at the end of a prayer is intended to ensure God will grant what is asked for. This is essentially treating the words “in Jesus’ name” as a magic formula. This is absolutely unbiblical.

 

The parable of the friend at midnight and the woman pleading before the judge describes a God I do not like. Attribute those characteristics to me. You have fallen in the river better yet your grandchild has fallen into the river. You ask me to help. I tell you to ask me again but ask more fervently which you do and I tell you to get a group of people and have them ask me and on and on and I do nothing to help. What would you think of me and you will understand what I think of a God who acts like that.

 

It is not a matter of common ground it is more along the line of understanding and recognizing reality. I know what the bible says and I find it does not happen the way I am told it does.

 





John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN




Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
         http://alumcave.blogspot.com/



 

“Having spent considerable time with good people, I can understand why Jesus liked to be with tax collectors and reprobate sinners."


Mark Twain


On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 8:47 PM, <abehel@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
John,

I always regard you highly and respect your thoughts, even when we disagree.  As I understand the meaning of "in my name" it is the
same as saying "as He wills", or according to His will.  I do not believe in blank checks. I believe every good gift comes from God, most of
the time without our asking.  The parable of the friend at midnight and the woman pleading before the judge suggest (to me) that God wants
us to ask and keep on asking.  Also, "Ask and you will receive" means (in Gr.), "keep on asking".  What are we to ask for if God is only
going to give us what He wants to give.

Perhaps sometime we could sit down together and open our Bibles and look at all the passages that address this subject and see if
we might find a common ground.  Right now I need to spend some time preparing for tomorrow...been battling a 24 hour bug and just
started feeling normal a few hours ago.

Hope you have a good night.  Thanks for your thoughts.

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: John Jenkins
Sent: Dec 27, 2014 8:18 PM
To: abehel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Ask and It Will Be Given to You.....


Hi Al,


As you have said I think differently than you do but when verses are abused I have to respond. Christians live in a world of their own imagination.

 

God never responds to our desires and needs. When you were talking to Dottie and me several months ago in the lobby you gave an example of God answering your prayers that happened when one of your children was an infant. I have friends who use examples of things that happened 40-years ago. If God answered prayers what happened to yesterday or 20-minutes ago.

 

Jesus tells us, “Ask, and it will be given to you…”(Matthew 7:7 . If you are right and Jesus was talking to us today I have to doubt anything Jesus said because from what I see he doesn’t.

 

You use that $30,000 example a lot. Hasn’t God done something a little more verifiable, recent or a larger amount? Your friend was a nice guy.  Remember Jesus' story about the woman and the two coins? She gave from her want while your friend gave from his surplus. Don't you have an example of an old lady giving a dollar when you knew she couldn't afford to give the dollar? If we are following Jesus' pattern I would expect more of them than those like your friend.

 

Again Jesus said, “Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it” (John 14:13, 14). The condition He places upon God’s gifts is that we ask in His name. Christians believe including the phrase “in Jesus Name” satisfies that condition (which it does not) and I have never heard anyone correct them. For some reason Jesus never answers and no one blinks an eye. Those prayers might fit the gentiles who like to hear themselves talk.

Prayers where there can be no ambiguity are never answered and to me it is mind boggling for folks to say otherwise in light of what can be seen. People say I do not have faith. I am not talking about my prayers because I do not ask nor expect anything from God. I am talking about those rote and repetitive prayers I hear every week. God never answers and saying he does not change reality though it appears to satisfy the flock. Apparently God handles sprained ankles, pneumonia and cancers detected early but turrets, autism, Downs syndrome, amputations, cancers detected late have God’s number or of course he just chooses to not get involved. 

One day folks discover what they have been taught their entire life is not true and it throws them a curve. In Vacation Bible School Mark told the kids that God will always rescue them if they remain faithful. One day they will discover that is not true and look elsewhere for truth. 

 





 

“Having spent considerable time with good people, I can understand why Jesus liked to be with tax collectors and reprobate sinners."


Mark Twain

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Saturday, December 27, 2014

Ask and It Will Be Given to You.....


Hi Al,


As you have said I think differently than you do but when verses are abused I have to respond. Christians live in a world of their own imagination.

 

God never responds to our desires and needs. When you were talking to Dottie and me several months ago in the lobby you gave an example of God answering your prayers that happened when one of your children was an infant. I have friends who use examples of things that happened 40-years ago. If God answered prayers what happened to yesterday or 20-minutes ago.

 

Jesus tells us, “Ask, and it will be given to you…”(Matthew 7:7 . If you are right and Jesus was talking to us today I have to doubt anything Jesus said because from what I see he doesn’t.

 

You use that $30,000 example a lot. Hasn’t God done something a little more verifiable, recent or a larger amount? Your friend was a nice guy.  Remember Jesus' story about the woman and the two coins? She gave from her want while your friend gave from his surplus. Don't you have an example of an old lady giving a dollar when you knew she couldn't afford to give the dollar? If we are following Jesus' pattern I would expect more of them than those like your friend.

 

Again Jesus said, “Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it” (John 14:13, 14). The condition He places upon God’s gifts is that we ask in His name. Christians believe including the phrase “in Jesus Name” satisfies that condition (which it does not) and I have never heard anyone correct them. For some reason Jesus never answers and no one blinks an eye. Those prayers might fit the gentiles who like to hear themselves talk.

Prayers where there can be no ambiguity are never answered and to me it is mind boggling for folks to say otherwise in light of what can be seen. People say I do not have faith. I am not talking about my prayers because I do not ask nor expect anything from God. I am talking about those rote and repetitive prayers I hear every week. God never answers and saying he does not change reality though it appears to satisfy the flock. Apparently God handles sprained ankles, pneumonia and cancers detected early but turrets, autism, Downs syndrome, amputations, cancers detected late have God’s number or of course he just chooses to not get involved. 

One day folks discover what they have been taught their entire life is not true and it throws them a curve. In Vacation Bible School Mark told the kids that God will always rescue them if they remain faithful. One day they will discover that is not true and look elsewhere for truth. 

 


John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
         
http://alumcave.blogspot.com




 

“Having spent considerable time with good people, I can understand why Jesus liked to be with tax collectors and reprobate sinners."


Mark Twain

Tuesday, December 23, 2014

Does the Church of Christ Live Up to the Starbucks' standard?

In his book How Starbucks Saved My Life, Michael Gill, wrote about the first time he cleaned the restroom.

 

One afternoon, he had just finished “detailing” the bathroom, and it was sparkling. He saw an old African-American man who was clearly a homeless person heading for the bathroom. Michael intercepted him and explained the restroom was closed for cleaning---a lie he made up because he was afraid of the mess he might make.

 

The store manager overheard him. She took him aside and told him never to refuse the bathroom to anyone. Michael explained that the old guy wasn’t a customer. She told him he might not be a customer, but everyone who walks in the door is a Guest and that is what makes Starbucks different from any other place in the city.

 

For some reason, perhaps because he had just worked hard to clean up the filth, he argued with her. He told her it is not Starbuck’s job to provide toilets for the homeless.

 

She told him that in any Starbucks, Starbucks is welcoming and to not refuse that toilet to anyone especially someone who really needs some welcoming and not another person putting them down.

 

Does the Church of Christ live up to the Starbucks standard?

Saturday, December 20, 2014

Bible Ancient View

Writers of the Bible assumed the earth was flat, was made by God in relatively, recent history (about 4,000 years before Jesus) just as it looks now, and that it is a fixed point in the cosmos over which the sun actually rises and sets. While most Christians don’t have a problem in reconciling this biblical view with science there are groups that do not seem convinced. There is in fact a Flat Earth Society, and one well-known group continues to advocate for a six-thousand-year-old earth where humans and dinosaurs coexisted. Others contend that the universe only looks old, that God created the cosmos with “apparent age.” These specific positions are problematic---scientifically and theologically. These other views rooted in precommittment to read the Bible literally at virtually every point despite evidence to the contrary, avoid engaging science by reinterpreting it to conform to that conviction. To the contrary, it is clear that, from a scientific point of vie, the Bible does not always describe physical reality accurately; it simply speaks in an ancient idiom, as one might expect ancient people to do. It is God’s Word, but is has an ancient view of the natural world, not a modern one.

Belief

To: abehel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Belief


I've intended to send this for a while but Dollywood continued to call. Today the Rampage is shutdown and I am not working. Something broke that fixing requires the channel be drained.  When drained the water somehow finds its way into a stream requiring Dollywood to control the flow so the urine (human and fowl), and associated  "purification" chemicals not pollute the stream. When they refill they have to notify Pigeon Forge of their intentions. Dollywood does not want it filled when guests are in the park; if it affects PF I can only imagine what it does to DW.

 

A few weeks ago the Supreme Court decided to not consider various state bans on same-sex-marriage allowing same-sex-marriage to proceed, at least in those states and for a while. During the report they showed two men kissing…. on the lips which brought to mind that you told me you thought homosexuality is a choice. I have asked a number of men what could influence them to choose to kiss another man and want to run their hands all over his body. I told them the question was rhetorical, because I did not want to know their answer. I cannot imagine anything permitting me to make such a choice so in my ignorance I believe the root cause of homosexuality must be something else.

 

Then we have the question of why do we believe anything?

 

When children who are ten, twelve, fourteen years-old are baptized are they capable of understanding what they are doing or are they just responding to someone they trust? For that matter do adults just respond to someone they trust? Faith is not enough. Who does not have "…confidence in what they hope for and assurance about what they do not see." in something? Consider people in "the" denominations, Muslims, Hindus etc all have "faith" as we have faith even atheists have confidence in something and hope for something.

 

Isn't it odd that what someone called "The Christian Age" is the first time since Creation that God does not interface directly with his creation? I realize many believe God answers their requests but factual evidence calls that belief into question. We are expected to believe without evidence of any type. We are not even allowed the Gideon test. I am told testing God is sin; relying upon God is testing God thus is sin; and that God helps those who help themselves. Our belief is based on our perception of the person telling us which is, in turn, based on their perception of the person telling them which is … you get the picture.

 

At some point shouldn't belief rely on fact, on knowledge? Are we the first of all creation expected to take somebody's word? God had been speaking directly but now…not a peep.

 

Studies have shown we are more likely to believe that a statement is true if we have heard it before---whether or not it is actually true: "illusion-of-truth effect." Subjects rated the validity of plausible sentences every two weeks. Without letting on, the experimenters snuck in some repeat sentences (both true and false ones) across the testing sessions. And they found a clear result: if subjects had heard a sentence in previous weeks, they were more likely to now rate it as true, even if they swore they had never heard it before. This is the case even when the experimenter tells the subjects that the sentences they are about to hear are false: despite this, mere exposure to an idea is enough to boost its believability upon later contact. The illusion-of-truth effect highlights the potential danger for people who are repeatedly exposed to the same religious edicts or political slogans.


Maybe we need to examine our "certainty."

Passenger Pigeon

As you look at the attendance in the assemblies "of the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God" consider the passenger pigeon, once the most abundant bird in North America

 

One flock in 1866 in southern Ontario was described as being 1 mi wide and 300 mi long, took 14 hours to pass, and held in excess of 3.5 billion birds. A slow decline between about 1800 and 1870 was followed by a catastrophic decline between 1870 and 1890 and extinction early in the 20th century.

 

One of C.J. Garner's favorite expressions was, "as the Sunday School goes, so goes the congregation." He thought the congregation that goes all out for its educational program, encouraging every member to attend, and providing the proper incentive, motivation and training for its teachers will be the congregation that will look forward to healthy growth. Now imagine GSMCOC 2024.

Wednesday, December 17, 2014

distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion

Albert Einstein thought for us who are convinced physicists, the distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however persistent.

 

The idea that time is an illusion is an old one. It reaches back to the days of Heraclitus and Parmenides. Heraclitus argued that the primary feature of the universe is that it is always changing. Parmenides, foreshadowing Einstein, countered by suggesting that there was no such thing as change. Put into modern language, Parmenides believed the universe is the set of all moments at once. The entire history of the universe simply is.

 

Today we would call this the “eternalist” or “block universe” view—thinking of space and time together as a single four-dimensional collection of events, rather than a three-dimensional world that evolves over time; visiting the past is no harder than walking down the street.

 

This “timeless” view of the universe goes against our usual thinking. We perceive our lives as unfolding. The laws of nature, as we currently understand them, treat all moments as equally real. No one is picked out as special; the laws simply say how any moment relates to the previous one and to the next.

 

Julian Barbour has managed to do interesting research in physics for decades now without any academic position, publishing dozens of papers in respected journals. He investigated the idea that time does not exist, constructing theoretical models of classical and quantum gravity in which time plays no fundamental role.

 

We have to be a little careful about what we mean by “time does not exist.” Even Parmenides or Barbour would acknowledge the existence of clocks, or of the concept of being late. At issue is whether each subsequent moment is brought into existence from the previous moment by the passage of time. Think of a movie, back in the days when most movies were projected from actual reels of film. You could watch the movie, see what happened and talk sensibly about how long the whole thing lasted. But you could also sneak into the projection room, assemble the reels of the film, and look at them all at once. The anti-time perspective says that the best way to think about the universe is, similarly, as a collection of the frames.

 

Tim Maudlin, a philosopher, and Lee Smolin, a physicist, have argued vociferously that time is real, and that the passage of time plays what we might call a generative role: It indeed brings the future into existence.

 

They think of time as an active player rather than a mere bookkeeping device.

Both researchers have been developing new mathematical tools and physical models to buttress their views. Maudlin’s novel approach focuses on the topology of spacetime itself—how different points in the universe are sewn together. Whereas traditional topology uses regions of space as fundamental building blocks, Maudlin takes worldlines (paths of particles through time) as the most basic object. From there, time evolution seems like a central feature of physics.

 

Smolin, in contrast, has suggested that the laws of physics themselves are evolving with time. We wouldn’t notice this from moment to moment, but over cosmological time scales, the parameters we think of as fixed may eventually take on very different values.

 

There is, perhaps, a middle position between insisting on the centrality of time and denying its existence. Something can be real—actually existing, not merely illusory—and yet not be fundamental. Scientists used to think that heat, for example, was a fluidlike substance, called “caloric,” that flowed from hot objects to colder ones. These days we know better: Heat is simply the random motions of the atoms and molecules out of which objects are made. Heat is still real, but it’s been explained at a deeper level. It emerges out of a more comprehensive understanding.

 

Perhaps time is like that. Someday, when the ultimate laws of physics are in our grasp, we may discover that the notion of time isn’t actually essential. Time might instead emerge to play an important role in the macroscopic world of our experience, even if it is nowhere to be found in the final Theory of Everything.

 

In that case, we can say that time is “real.” Weknow what it means to grow older or to celebrate an anniversary whether or not time is “fundamental.”

Tuesday, December 16, 2014

Torture and Christianity?


In response to the 9/11 attacks, the United States adopted interrogation techniques copied from the Soviet Union and other cold war adversaries. Practices we once told our military they could expect to experience if captured by an unethical government.  Our government defends techniques of the Soviet secret police claiming we need the tactics to learn the truth.